How about HR.25? The Fair Tax

Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 5:48 am

The current U.S. tax code is just too large and cumbersome. It is more often than not used as a tool by politicians to buy votes and increase their power or remain in power.
Most consumers just don't realize how much tax they are in reality paying, nor do they know where it is all being spent.
In my opinion three actions are necessary.
1. Replace the current tax code with the "Fair Tax", a consumption tax.
2. Begin to call the government on their wasteful spending, demanding changes be made where possible.
3. Demand they begin to seriously reduce and eliminate the outstanding debt owed by the U.S. government and only allow future debt to occur only due to some severe catastrophe beyond control.

Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 6:42 am

aftac wrote:

The current U.S. tax code is just too large and cumbersome. It is more often than not used as a tool by politicians to buy votes and increase their power or remain in power.
Most consumers just don't realize how much tax they are in reality paying, nor do they know where it is all being spent.
In my opinion three actions are necessary.
1. Replace the current tax code with the "Fair Tax", a consumption tax.
2. Begin to call the government on their wasteful spending, demanding changes be made where possible.
3. Demand they begin to seriously reduce and eliminate the outstanding debt owed by the U.S. government and only allow future debt to occur only due to some severe catastrophe beyond control.

How about NO Tax? And I'm not just being idealistic. Every penny of the income tax goes to paying down the national debt. The Fed creates money out of thin air and LOANS it to the government (Us Americans) and charges interest on every dollar. WE have the power to have Congress coin money without interest! The national debt is the interest we "owe" them....The Fed....which are private bankers. All your money goes into their pocket. You would be amazingly surprised to learn that most of the public services people normally think their federal income tax pays for...is actually handled by your state and local taxes...and sales taxes. Any Federal Tax is income confiscation for an elite banking cartel.
Google video "fiat empire" and "money masters" and "the creature from Jekyll island"
Peace

Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 10:19 am

No tax would be nice, not very realistic. As long as governments exist they will require funding, unless you can get them to work and provide services for free.
The National debt is not being payed down but continues to grow. Look at the National debt clock.
The Federal Reserve is another topic which should be discussed on it's own merit.
I'm from Brunswick, Ga. (Jekyll Island) and somewhat familiar with some of the things that have gone on there and on St. Simons Island over the nearly 7 decades of my life and even earlier.
The bottom line is that taxes are not going away, and if you read the Fair Tax proposal HR.25, and S.296, I think you'll find that it proposes a means of solving a number of the problems which exist under the current tax laws, not to mention ending annual tax returns. Although it would eliminate most IRS jobs, save a few to deal with the point of sales collectors of tax, those jobs were only burdensome on the taxpayers to begin with.
Have you read the bills? About 133 pages compared to the current over 50,000 pages of tax code. It's quite interesting, and I've not found anything in it that isn't explained quite clearly.

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An afterthought, are you aware that a VAT is being vetted as a possible additional tax to be imposed in the U.S. to help cover some of the spending now taking place?

[From Admin: Posts Merged don't double Post]

Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 6:46 pm

aftac wrote:

1. Replace the current tax code with the "Fair Tax", a consumption tax.
.

By this I assume you mean something like a national sales tax? If so here's a problem;

Under that kind of system lower income people would pay a higher percentage.

Example; Poor people spend close to 100% of their disposable income. Therefore are taxed on that amount. A person of means may only spend say 50% of their disposable income. The rest being saved, invested, spent in foreign countries etc.

Myself? I favor a flat tax. 10% for everyone from Bill Gates to the homeless bum on the street corner.

Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 9:36 pm

well living in Washington with a sales tax of almost 10% you can image that everything here is expensive. but it has it's pro's to. for one out state income tax is tiny and with everything being expensive were a bit more frugal here. so a national sales tax might not be a bad thing. it would decrees the income tax so people with less money don't have to give as much if they don't need it. also for a flat tax in my opinion that's a bad idea. the percentage that the tax would have to be at would have to be a large double digit number and at a rate that people whom are rich could give easily but poor people would bare the burden of taxes and in my ethical stand point it's better for the rich to bare the burden as to the poor. because when the poor suffer they really suffer.

Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 9:49 pm

So no more federally funded social programs? What constitutes "wasteful" spending? How could we reduce outstanding debt? We've been in debt as a nation for a loooooooooong time. I don't see it changing anytime soon. I don't like the system, but I accept it, because I'm ultimately better off than most of the world. If the worst I have to worry about is financial debt, then life is pretty good.

Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 12:24 am

Kahsar wrote:

aftac wrote:

1. Replace the current tax code with the "Fair Tax", a consumption tax.
.

By this I assume you mean something like a national sales tax? If so here's a problem;

Under that kind of system lower income people would pay a higher percentage.

Example; Poor people spend close to 100% of their disposable income. Therefore are taxed on that amount. A person of means may only spend say 50% of their disposable income. The rest being saved, invested, spent in foreign countries etc.

Myself? I favor a flat tax. 10% for everyone from Bill Gates to the homeless bum on the street corner.

You've obviously not read the Fair Tax proposal. It also includes a pre-bate, based on household size, to cover the taxes incurred up to the poverty level. That would be available to all legal U.S. citizens. It eliminates all corporate taxes which currently are passed on to the consumer in the price of the product. It eliminates payroll taxes, social security taxes, medicare taxes, adding their cost into the general tax collection fund, which in essence eliminates the ceiling on paying social security taxes. It creates a single point of taxation and that being at the time money is spent. Taxes can be avoided completely if one wishes, just don't make purchases above the poverty level, and only buy used cars or pre owned houses. Those who spend more, the rich, would certainly pay the most taxes, the poorest would pay none, and any tax paid would no longer be hidden. Take home pay would increase greatly as no taxes would be collected, and companies could even add in their matching social security costs to boost it further. Prices could be reduced as companies would no longer have to pass on their tax burden in the price of their products, and competition could enforce such price adjustments.
And best of all, no longer would April 15th be of significance to Americans.

Please read The Fair Tax and see if you can find anything at all that appears to be a problem with it.

weirdobeardo wrote:

So no more federally funded social programs? What constitutes "wasteful" spending? How could we reduce outstanding debt? We've been in debt as a nation for a loooooooooong time. I don't see it changing anytime soon. I don't like the system, but I accept it, because I'm ultimately better off than most of the world. If the worst I have to worry about is financial debt, then life is pretty good.

The subject of the OP is the method of taxation, and how to make it more transparent and less of a tool to be used by politicians. The Fair Tax proposal eliminates loopholes for special interest groups, creating a single tax rate which is paid by EVERYONE who spends a dime in the U.S., citizens, illegal/undocumented aliens, foreign visitors, and even the politicians and the rich. EVERY American citizen is exempted from paying taxes on purchases up to the poverty level as each household receives a monthly check in the amount that would equal the tax burden on purchases up to the poverty level. Only spending above that amount incurs a tax burden on the purchaser.

Social programs, wasteful spending, outstanding debt are another thing which should be addressed on their own merit. One thing at a time, or we get bogged down in nothing more than rhetoric and debate.

Please everyone who would post on this subject, try and read the Fair Tax proposal FIRST, and then point out anything you feel is a shortcoming, if you can find any. You may find yourself surprised at the depth of reasoning that went into it's creation, and if not point out what it is you find needing change, or exactly where you see something negative it produces.

Perhaps it would be more productive if everyone responding were to familiarize themselves with either the House Resolution H.R.25, the Senate Resolution S.296, or both which are easily found at the thomas dot gov site via the GPO.
These resolutions are only 131 pages long, but a couple of books exist which go into much greater detail explaining the details as well as responding to questions posed most relevant to the impact of such a change

3 posts merged

Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 1:38 am

aftac pls don't triple double or quadruple post, if ppl want to have an opion without being told

Quote:

You've obviously not read the Fair Tax proposal

Quote:

Please everyone who would post on this subject, try and read the Fair Tax proposal FIRST,

Quote:

Perhaps it would be more productive if everyone responding were to familiarize themselves with either the House Resolution H.R.25, the Senate Resolution S.296, or both which are easily found at the thomas dot gov site via the GPO.

They can, we are a discussion board after all

Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 11:21 pm

The fair tax is one of those things we need, that congress will never give, They can't afford to lose that power. Just like congressional term limits, 93% of Americans want it, so congress, representing us, should install it. Let's take bets as to when they will.

Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 12:06 am

irving.washington1 wrote:

The fair tax is one of those things we need, that congress will never give, They can't afford to lose that power. Just like congressional term limits, 93% of Americans want it, so congress, representing us, should install it. Let's take bets as to when they will.

I agree with your post completely, and if left to the government it more or less a sure bet that it will never occur.
It's been over 50 years since I went to school, but I seem to remember something that Lincoln said in his Gettysburg Address, "that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth." I think it must be up to the people to ensure that "by the people" has meaning as "of the people" is a certainty no matter what form of government exists, and "for the people" can be easily manipulated by a very few to the benefit of only some of the people, especially when using the tax laws that currently exist.
The power held by elected politicians should only be a result of what the people will allow them to wield. Government has grown out of control only because the majority of citizens have allowed it to morph itself into the form of a provider, rather than a protector.
If enough individuals were to begin a nationwide movement which was to begin to place demands on the changes that are necessary, the government would have no choice but to comply.
Personally I feel that tax law change is the area which change would allow the citizens to begin to retake control of the government from the Washington politicians, and restore some of the freedoms and liberty that are slowly being eroded.